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ROUGH RIDERS


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Post #1 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 10:54 AM

I've just finished watching this. Can't believe it's taken me so long to get around to it.

Briefly, for those who might be unaware, it's the Spanish/American War in Cuba of 1898 -- and it's BRILLIANT..!!

Sure it's a bit dated now; sure it's a 3-hour marathon; I don't care. The charge up San Juan Hill makes the time invested well worth it.

Lots of familiar faces and the absolute stand-out for me is Tom Berenger as Teddy Roosevelt -- I think he nailed him.

Highly, no HIGHLY, recommended.

 

https://www.amazon.c...ds=rough riders



Post #2 Oldallamerican

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Posted 04 September 2016 - 05:27 PM

Love it.


Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia


Post #3 marco55

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 11:06 AM

It's been a long time since I saw it but I love it too.They were good days when you could be patriotic and not get criticzed for it.

Mark



Post #4 Oldallamerican

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 08:32 PM

One my favorite parts - and there are a lot of good scenes in the film - is the scene where the Rough Riders are heading south on the train to Florida and there's an old man, a Confederate Civil War veteran, with his young grandson. The boy asks his grandpa, "Are them soldiers Rebels or Yankees?" The Grandfather answers, "They ain't Rebels or Yankees, son, they're AMERICANS!" (I may have the exact wording wrong but I love the scene anyway).

 

I'm reminded of "Lightening Joe" Wheeler's funeral. For those not familiar with this aspect of US history or the movie. In the movie he was played by Gary Busey, even though the real Lightening Joe was a small man. Gary may have gotten the spirit of the man right, though; Nathan Bedford Forrest once refused to ride with Wheeler because of his recklessness - that's saying something.

 

Anyway, Wheeler was a Confederate cavalry commander in the Civil War and, as the movie shows, he was given command of the cavalry for the Cuban campaign in the Spanish-American War. Because of his Federal Service in the Spanish American War when he died he was buried with full military honors in the uniform of the US Army - blue.  As his body lay in state for viewing many of his surviving veterans passed by to pay their respects to their former commander. One veteran looked down at his old commander in Federal blue and was heard to say, "Oh General... if only Ol' Stonewall could see you now..."

 

Love it.


Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia


Post #5 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 05 September 2016 - 11:17 PM

I've found and watched several oldies but goodies recently that also deal with duty and patriotism including these two.

Great Scot, I haven't seen either of them since I was a kid.

 

61-84SnP0gL.jpg

 

Available from Amazon here;

https://www.amazon.c... over tokyo dvd

 

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Available from Amazon here;

https://www.amazon.c...uct_top?ie=UTF8

 

 

THE FOLLOWING IS MORE OR LESS LIFTED STRAIGHT OFF WIKIPEDIA

 


220px-DoolittleRaiders_China_h97502.jpg

 
Lt. Col. Doolittle with members of his flight crew and Chinese officials in China after the attack. From left to right: Staff Sgt. Fred A. Braemer, bombardier; Staff Sgt. Paul J. Leonard, flight engineer/gunner; General Ho, director of the Branch Government of Western Chekiang Province; 1st Lt. Richard E. Cole, copilot; Doolittle; Henry H. Shen, bank manager; Lt. Henry A. Potter, navigator; Chao Foo Ki, secretary of the Western Chekiang Province Branch Government.

Fate of the missing crewmen[edit]

 

Following the Doolittle Raid, most of the B-25 crews who had reached China eventually achieved safety with the help of Chinese civilians and soldiers. Of the sixteen planes and 80 airmen who participated in the raid (with the single exception of Capt. Edward York and his crew (eighth off—AC #40-2242), which landed in Soviet Russia and the crew interned), all either crash-landed, were ditched or crashed after their crews bailed out. Nevertheless, 69 escaped capture or death, with only three killed in action (KIA) as a result of the loss of their aircraft. When the Chinese helped the Americans escape, the grateful Americans in turn gave them whatever they had on hand. The people who helped them paid dearly for sheltering the Americans. Eight Raiders were captured (POW), but their fate was not fully known until 1946.[34][35][36]

 

Accounted for as KIA shortly after the raid was Faktor, the flight engineer/gunner on Gray's crew, (third off—AC #40-2270). The citation for his posthumous Distinguished Flying Cross reported that after Faktor successfully bailed out with the rest of his crew over mountainous terrain near Suichang, Zhejiang Province, China, he was killed shortly afterwards when he fell down a cliff.[35][37]

 

The crews of two aircraft (ten men in total) were unaccounted for: those of 1st Lt. Dean E. Hallmark (sixth off) and 1st Lt. William G. Farrow (last off). On 15 August 1942, the United States learned from the Swiss Consulate General in Shanghai that eight of the missing crew members were prisoners of the Japanese at the city's Police Headquarters. Two crewmen drowned after crash-landing in the ocean. On 19 October 1942, the Japanese announced that they had tried the eight prisoners and sentenced them all to death, but said several had received commutation of their sentences to life imprisonment. No names or details were given.

 

The story of the missing crews was revealed in February 1946 during a war crimes trial held in Shanghai to try four Japanese officers charged with mistreating the eight captured crewmen. It was learned that two of the missing crewmen, bombardier S/Sgt. William J. Dieter and flight engineer Sgt. Donald E. Fitzmaurice of Hallmark's crew, drowned when their B-25 crashed into the sea. The other eight were captured: Hallmark, Farrow, 1st Lt. Robert J. Meder, 1st Lt. Chase Nielsen, 1st Lt. Robert L. Hite, 2nd Lt. George Barr, Cpl. Harold A. Spatz and Cpl. Jacob DeShazer. On 28 August 1942, Hallmark, Farrow, and gunner Spatz faced a war crimes trial by a Japanese court alleging they strafed and murdered Japanese civilians. At 16:30 on 15 October 1942, they were taken by truck to Public Cemetery Number 1, and executed by firing squad.

 

The other captured airmen remained in military confinement on a starvation diet, their health rapidly deteriorating. In April 1943, they were moved to Nanking, where Meder died on 1 December 1943. The remaining men, Nielsen, Hite, Barr and DeShazer, eventually began receiving slightly better treatment and were given a copy of the Bible and a few other books. They were freed by American troops in August 1945. Four Japanese officers were tried for war crimes against the captured Doolittle Raiders, found guilty, and sentenced to hard labor, three for five years and one for nine years.

 

Barr had been near death when liberated and remained behind in China recuperating until October, by which time he had begun to experience severe emotional problems. Untreated after transfer to Letterman General Hospital and a military hospital in Clinton, Iowa, Barr became suicidal and was held virtually incommunicado until November, when Doolittle's personal intervention resulted in treatment that led to his recovery.[38] DeShazer graduated from Seattle Pacific University in 1948 and returned to Japan as a missionary, where he served for over 30 years.[39]

 

Total crew casualties: 3 KIA: 2 off the coast of China, 1 in China; 8 POW: 3 executed, 1 died in captivity, 4 repatriated.[34][35][36][40] Of the surviving prisoners, Barr died of heart failure in 1967, Nielsen in 2007, DeShazer on 15 March 2008, and the last, Hite, died 29 March 2015.



Post #6 mitch

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 03:35 AM

Never watched rough riders. 30 seconds over Tokyo is excellent and watched it recently. Not seen the purple heart one will have to see if I have it and never watched it or, buy it

Mitch 


The truth will set us free


Post #7 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 04:53 AM

Never watched rough riders. 30 seconds over Tokyo is excellent and watched it recently. Not seen the purple heart one will have to see if I have it and never watched it or, buy it

Mitch 

 

Rough Riders is brilliant at depicting what was still regarded at the time as a "young country" -- which was just on the brink of stepping out onto the world stage.

The Purple Heart and 30 Seconds over Tokyo are both products of the times they were filmed and ought not to be thought of in terms of being "propaganda films". To a certain extent it's easy to come to the conclusion that's exactly what they are -- but there's so much more to both movies than that.

Same goes for The Duke's "Flying Tigers", "The Sands of Iwo Jima", "The Fighting Seabee's", "They Were Expendable" and a whole host of other terrific movies from that particular era.



Post #8 Guest_Jazzeum_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 06:46 AM

Technically, it's the Spanish Cuban American War. After all, the Cubans were fighting for independence and the Americans were supposed to be helping them but, oh, a little thing called Imperialism got in the way and the Americans decided to keep Cuba for itself, merely replacing the Spanish masters with American masters. This is the beginning of what led to today's situation.

Post #9 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 07:04 AM

Technically, it's the Spanish Cuban American War. After all, the Cubans were fighting for independence and the Americans were supposed to be helping them but, oh, a little thing called Imperialism got in the way and the Americans decided to keep Cuba for itself, merely replacing the Spanish masters with American masters. This is the beginning of what led to today's situation.

 

I stand corrected.

Should've looked it up on Wiki before posting my first message.

:huh:



Post #10 Guest_Jazzeum_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 09:21 AM

Trust me, you're far from being the only one to say it that way.  If you look at history books in this country, it's always called the Spanish American War, conveniently forgetting the role of the Cubans.



Post #11 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 10:11 AM



Trust me, you're far from being the only one to say it that way.  If you look at history books in this country, it's always called the Spanish American War, conveniently forgetting the role of the Cubans.

 

Truth to tell, I've almost always seen the conflict described as the "Spanish-American War" and very rarely the "Spanish-Cuban-American War". But while I get your point Brad, I don't want to end up with a bunch of hair-splitting posts on this thread. I think it's enough to say we both know which war is being referred to, and who the participants were.

 

patriots.gif

 

In actual fact, the 3-hour long Movie, (I think it was probably a TV Series?), has piqued my interest to fill the blanks in my sketchy knowledge of this era in American history. While I'm fairly conversant with the other, roughly concurrent conflicts, (pun intended), such as the 2nd Boer War and the Boxer Rebellion, I'd like to know more about this one.

For example, I knew right away who "Black Jack Pershing" was when he made an appearance in the show, and obviously I knew a bit about Theodore Roosevelt as well, plus I was vaguely aware of Admiral Dewey's adventures in Manila Bay, but I want to look at their earlier careers as well as the other fairly interesting and influential characters who became prominent at this time. 

 

I think this is quite a good introductory article:-

http://www.history.c...sh-american-war

 

And of course that'll lead me straight on to the Philippine-American War as well:-

https://en.wikipedia...–American_War

 

Pretty interesting stuff -- and they definitely didn't include these two in the syllabus when I was at school.... :)

 

Cheers

H



Post #12 Guest_Jazzeum_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 12:31 PM

Harry,

 

To the Cuban people, I don't thnk it's splitting hairs.  Before I sold my soul down the river and became an attorney, I wanted to be a Professor of Latin American History (since I had lived overseas in Latin America, as well as Spain, and was fluent in Spanish and Portuguese), just so you understand my perspective.  However, I realized early on I wasn't God's gift to Latin American History, so here I am :lol:.

 

The Philippines War: another fine episode in our history :huh:

 

Such are the fruits of empire. 

 

Brad



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Posted 06 September 2016 - 12:48 PM

A Splendid Little War by Frank Freidel, https://www.amazon.c...s/dp/1580800939, is an excellent book on the topic that I read eons ago.  Originally published in the 50s. 

 

Although attributed to Mexico, these words by Porfirio Diaz (President of Mexico until 1910 when he was overthrown in the Mexican Revolution) could apply to Cuba and Central America, as well as Latin America:

 

"Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States."

 

Our relationship with our Southern neighbors has been far from exemplary.

 

Okay, sermonizing over.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.



Post #14 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 05:33 PM

Harry,

 

To the Cuban people, I don't thnk it's splitting hairs.  Before I sold my soul down the river and became an attorney, I wanted to be a Professor of Latin American History (since I had lived overseas in Latin America, as well as Spain, and was fluent in Spanish and Portuguese), just so you understand my perspective.  However, I realized early on I wasn't God's gift to Latin American History, so here I am :lol:.

 

The Philippines War: another fine episode in our history :huh:

 

Such are the fruits of empire. 

 

Brad

 

 

A Splendid Little War by Frank Freidel, https://www.amazon.c...s/dp/1580800939, is an excellent book on the topic that I read eons ago.  Originally published in the 50s. 

 

Although attributed to Mexico, these words by Porfirio Diaz (President of Mexico until 1910 when he was overthrown in the Mexican Revolution) could apply to Cuba and Central America, as well as Latin America:

 

"Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States."

 

Our relationship with our Southern neighbors has been far from exemplary.

 

Okay, sermonizing over.  I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

 

When it comes to 19th and 20th Century Empire building and Colonization, none of the country's involved come out with clean hands, be it America, Great Britain, Germany, France, Belgium, Russia, Italy or the Japanese -- and going even further back, Spain and Portugal. And that's just naming a few.

While I readily acknowledge the fact that the specific aim of colonization, and indeed war in general, is to make a privileged few even richer on the back of abject misery inflicted on our fellow man -- it's history. Not much I, you, or anyone else, can do to change that. 

Of course, in an ideal world we'd like to think our leaders have learned from the mistakes of the past -- but we all know how that one goes.

 

Oh well, enough sermonizing from me too. Thanks for the Freidel recommendation Brad. I'm going to hit the link right after I post this response and hopefully it'll be available in digital format.

 

Cheers

H



Post #15 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 05:51 PM

51VKM3PRD5L._SX309_BO1204203200_.jpg

 

Nope, rather disappointingly it doesn't appear to be available as an e-book, at least not on Amazon. I'll have a look around and see if it's available in digital format elsewhere. If not, then I'll fall back on one of my Stateside friends being willing to send it out to me.

This is contemporaneous with Late-Victorian and Edwardian Britain, which is also a fascinating period to read up on.

 

You know, it's times like these when I really wish I could persuade Randal Bond to join this forum as his knowledge of this era in American history is almost encyclopedic. It's rather unfortunate that "someone" told him he was unwelcome here.



Post #16 Oldallamerican

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 07:35 PM

Contrary to popular belief the Spanish-American War was not fought to gain an empire. And to call it anything but the Spanish-American War like the Spanish-American-Cuban War forgets the global aspect to the thing, should we call it the Spanish-American-Cuban-Philippine War?  I figure keep it simple.

 

The only group of people who really wanted war was the "yellow press" - led by Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst. Nothing like a war to sell papers. Surprisingly enough, most big business interests (the villains dujour of most of today's movies and tv shows, along with the military) were opposed to war. It was bad for business. The insurrection in Cuba was hurting their business interests there; they wanted an end to hostilities and stability, hopefully a continuation of the status quo.

 

McKinley was roundly opposed to the war but events got out of his hands, with the sinking of the ​Maine​, which was rightly or wrongly (according to recent scholarship) blamed on the Spanish. This turned public opinion against Spain and for the war. If it was the Cuban insurrectionists who did it to bring the US into the conflict it was a stroke of Machiavellian genius.   We went to war and came out some ninety days later the reluctant possessors of an Empire. The one fact was the Spanish governor of Cuba was notoriously ruthless in his treatment of the Cubans and most of the stories of mistreatment of the Cuban people were true - even if some were embellished for propaganda effect.

 

If before the sinking of the Maine, the American people were somewhat apathetic about war with Cuba, a large portion of the Cuban people looked to the USA for their "deliverance" from Spanish rule. There was even a large movement among the Cubans to annex itself to the US - an idea that had floated since before the American Civil War both in Cuba and the American South in particular as pre-War Southerners saw in Cuba another slave state in their war for balance of power in the Senate.

 

At the onset of the war Congress passed the Teller Amendment promising Independence to Cuba and stating the aim of the US in entering the war was not to conquer Cuba from Spain, but rather to assist them in gaining their independence. Later, after the war the fear of destabilization in post-war Cuba caused Congress to pass the Platt Amendment to allow the US to still have a say in Cuban affairs without violating at least the letter of the Teller Amendment.  There was also a genuine fear other powers might take over where Spain left off as well as the fear of what might happen to the Cubans as they moved toward self-rule without experience at governing themselves. And there are numerous examples of revolutions getting rid of one tyrant only to be replaced by another. One might look back from over one hundred years and doubt the motives and call the attitude condescending, but in the age of Empires and colonialism, it rang valid to the most well-meaning. Technically, Cuba DID gain its independence after the war, even though the US received a lease on a base in Guantanamo,  Bay, which we retain to this day. One might wring their hands over that, but at the time it made smart strategic sense and during the Cold War was invaluable.

 

A similar situation existed in the Philippines. Almost as soon as the war ended we were trying to find a way to get out of there that wouldn't do more harm than good. While doing research for a paper on the Philippine - American War (once called the Philippine Insurrection) I had the opportunity to read the official dispatches and orders to and from Washington and the commanders in the field. We went there mainly to hurt the Spanish but discovered the removal of the Spanish only opened the Philippines to conquest to other world powers, particularly Germany, who with Japan and Russia came a bit late to the colonial empire building business and saw the Philippines as ripe for the plucking, particularly with the Spanish out of the way. Couple that with the warring factions among the Filipinos themselves there was a genuine concern that US withdrawal from the islands might precipitate a civil war, which would make the islands even more ripe for taking over by the powers standing by. So, taking these factors - along with the enormous strategic value of its location in Far East trade and military value - the US delayed its withdrawal and a war ensued. A very nasty war on all sides. It reminded me a lot of wars that followed across the globe with a great power fighting a guerilla war. Though there were incidents of war crimes from our troops, which were blasted and broadcast by a press against the war (sounds familiar to a soldier from my generation) for the most part our troops behaved with great restraint, considering the nature of the type of war they were fighting and the racism and bigotry endemic of the period.

 

Attempts to relocate Filipinos out of insurgent controlled areas, not only limited insurgent recruitment efforts but also protected the villagers from depredations.  I was surprised to learn that schools set up by US volunteers in the relocation areas led to the Filipino people having among the highest literacy rates in Asia for decades. I'm not saying all was lilacs and roses, mind you. It was a dirty war - there aren't many really clean ones - even World War 2 had its dark side - but irregular or Counter-Insurgency is particularly nasty and requires the highest discipline among the soldiers forced to fight an enemy that blends with the populace. As I've said many, many times, I'm not so much surprised at the fact war crimes happen as I am they don't happen more often in the heat of combat. It is too often hard to turn the "kill" off. Don't get me wrong - I'm not justifying the crimes or the criminals.

 

The fact I discovered in my research (to my surprise) the US government almost from the first was trying to find a way to move the Philippines toward independence (while hopefully maintaining rights to a naval base or two for strategic reasons). An Insular Government was established in January 1901 to give the Filipinos self-government within the protective cover (needed or not is a matter of opinion) of the US. The entire goal was to move the Philippines to independence and self-government. At the end of 1932 (December 30 to be exact) Congress gave outgoing President Hoover a goodbye kiss by overriding his veto of the Hare–Hawes–Cutting Bill, which established a plan to grant the Philippines independence in ten years. This plan was delayed by the invasion of Japan in 1941, but the Philippines gained its independence in 1946, almost immediately after the war. The long well-intended, if oft wrongly executed plan for Philippines independence was complete.

 

I have great fondness for the Philippines and Filipino people. There is a great deal of ambivalence as one travels across the country from north to south, island to island. My son and his family have been living in Baguio at the Northern end of Luzon in the mountain region (gorgeous) where they teach at a seminary; I see more pro-American t-shirts and God Bless America than I see in the States! By the same token, going to a movie over there is a cultural experience in itself. Every showing starts with the Philippine National Anthem (reminds me of going to see movies on post when I was in the Army), but the anthem is played over a film that shows Filipinos fighting (and beating) all the various invaders in their history, from the Chinese, the Spanish, the US, and the Japanese. There's a scene of Filipino natives attacking and hacking apart ancient Chinese warriors with their trusty bolos; it switches to Filipino natives hacking Spanish troops to pieces; then US troops, then Japanese (of course in this one they have some modern weapons, too). This is serious business and you risk your neck if you comment or snicker - EVERYONE must stand during the anthem - even guests from the country whose troops are being hacked apart. I figure it's only polite to one's hosts.

 

After years of protests and conflict the US finally closed its base at Subic Bay. Visit the area now and one finds a lot of expatriate retired US Sailors and Marines living well off their retirement but missing the Base Exchanges. One also finds Filipinos who miss the bases and the economic benefits the Sailors and Marines brought to the area through base jobs and their spending their checks. I spoke with more than one who said he wished the US would come back.

 

I titled my paper from a sign I saw in a picture of the protests against our base in Subic Bay during my research. I think it best sums up US/Filipino relations: "YANKEE GO HOME - AND TAKE ME WITH YOU!"

 

Sorry to go on so long but hope it is enlightening. I went in to my research with certain pre-conceived notions about the war from revisionist interpretations and popular opinion formed through a very biased media (particularly dealing with the problems in the Philippines after the war was over, whatever you choose to call them) that was opposed to US occupation in the Philippines. I found this ironic, considering it had been the press that pretty much got us in the mess in the first place by jingoing for war with Spain.


Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia


Post #17 Oldallamerican

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 07:39 PM

Harry, Freidel's book is pretty good, but takes an overall dim view of our involvement in the War if I recall correctly. It's been awhile and was one of my resources when I did my work on the Philippine Insurrection/Philippine-American War.

 

Jazz, your quote from Diaz was used as the title of a good book David Eisenhower (Ike's son) wrote on the Mexican War, "So Far from God." Great read.


Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia


Post #18 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 08:59 PM

Harry, Freidel's book is pretty good, but takes an overall dim view of our involvement in the War if I recall correctly. It's been awhile and was one of my resources when I did my work on the Philippine Insurrection/Philippine-American War.

 

Jazz, your quote from Diaz was used as the title of a good book David Eisenhower (Ike's son) wrote on the Mexican War, "So Far from God." Great read.

 

Thanks for that -- and also the previous post, including this one....

"YANKEE GO HOME - AND TAKE ME WITH YOU!"

 

Kind of says it all, doesn't it.



Post #19 Guest_Harrytheheid_*

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Posted 06 September 2016 - 09:11 PM

By the way, and just changing the subject back to the Doolittle Raid for a moment, I've found this 1/72 diecast model of one of the B-25B's involved in the incredible exploit and hopefully an example will find it's way into my collection by the end of this year.

 

resize.jpg



Post #20 Andy c. Neilson

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Posted 07 September 2016 - 08:54 AM

I love B25's!!! If anyone else likes them... watch 'Catch 22'.

A whole lot of the B25's still flying today were saved and restored thanks to that movie.

    Happy Viewing, Andy.





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